Nazi International

by General Winter, bibliotecapleyades.net

The title of this interview, , refers to Joseph Farrell's latest book, in which he details - as do Camelot witnesses Jim Marrs and Peter Levenda, and many other researchers (including Jim Keith, who died in unusual circumstances and to whom we pay tribute here) - how the Nazis were experimenting with technology extremely advanced for their time, and how many Nazi scientists, evaluated as being valuable resources for post-war America, were repatriated to the US under Project Paperclip.

We first heard of Joseph Farrell from Richard Hoagland - and soon after from Nick Cook, the author of The Hunt for Zero Point.

Farrell, like Peter Levenda, is essentially an academic: a document researcher who digs deep into historical detail and has become fascinated, as many others have, with the hidden history of the Third Reich.

He has continued Igor Witkowski's and Nick Cook's research into the enigmatic Nazi Bell: an experimental device, classified at the highest level, that seems to have been used to investigate time distortion effects or antigravity - very possibly both - based on the beginnings of theoretical torsion physics that was being developed in the 1920s and 1930s by a number of brilliant European scientists, themselves very much ahead of their time.

In this interview, Bill Ryan takes the lead and talks with Joseph Farrell in some depth about his work.

The interview takes the viewer on a journey which starts before the Second World War, and explores just what German scientists may have been doing in great secret, with the full support of the SS. And, as the title of the video indicates, the story by no means ends there.

This video may be of considerable interest to students of wartime advanced technology, and of the hidden history of the Third Reich.

Project Camelot interviews Joseph Farrell

See Video:

Video Trascription

Introduction

Bill Ryan (BR): ...So our job is to help you get your information out to the maximum amount of people.

Joseph Farrell (JF): Okay.

BR: And the people who do watch this information are a very eclectic bunch. We’ve got 16-year-old kids who’ve just woken up last month saying: What’s going on around here? Tell me. Tell me. And then we’ve got seasoned researchers like yourself, and even insiders themselves, who watch our videos to get a feel for what’s really going on.

JF: Okay.

BR: And so, one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you was because you’re a very cogent, lucid and articulate presenter of some very difficult information. I’m sure other people have told you that as well, but we recognize that.

JF: Okay.

BR: And we apologize for putting you under the camera here, to the extent that you don’t have your slide slow. [Farrell laughs]. You don’t have any prompts and you don’t have any notes.

JF: I’ll do shadows. [laughs]

BR: The feeling we had about you is that you have a very good grasp of your information, and we respect that as well. So here we go. We’re rolling.

Start of interview

So... I’m Bill Ryan from Project Camelot. I’m here with my colleague Kerry Cassidy and we’re delighted to also be here with Joseph Farrell. And off camera just a few moments ago I checked that it was okay to call you Joe...

JF: Oh, absolutely.

BR: ...‘cause we’re among friends here, and that makes me feel a little bit more relaxed. You may be wondering, and some of our viewers may be wondering how come this is Bill here who’s doing this interview. And just as a little bit of a personal introduction about myself, and also maybe to some of our newer viewers, I’m... If we were the real X-Files, I would actually be Scully. [laughter] Okay? Meaning, I’m the one who’s slightly more scientific, slightly more skeptical, slightly more cautious...

JF: Right.

BR: ...and this is why, between us, many people feel, and we feel ourselves, that we make quite a good team. So I have a math and physics background.

JF: Okay.

BR: I tend not to leap to wild conclusions, but at the same time I’m very happy to think out of the box...

JF: Sure.

BR: ...as I strongly suspect you do as well.

JF: Right.

BR: And one of the reasons why we really wanted to talk to you besides the very high professional quality of your presentation on various interviews that we listened to, to prepare ourselves for this - is that the pieces of the jigsaw that you have collected through your diligent research seem to us to be essential understanding for anyone who really wants to know what’s going on today in geopolitics, in terms of “black science”, maybe even in terms of global agenda, who’s running the show, how it all started, where it all started, and when it all started.

JF: Okay.

BR: And for the benefit of some of our viewers who may not know who you are...

JF: Okay. [laughs]

BR: ...despite that introduction, give us your elevator speech about: Who is Joe Farrell? And how did you come to do what you’re doing right now?

JF: Well, Cliff Notes version: My father was an engineer, so I kind of grew up in a household where science was always kind of a main thing to be stressed, and I’ve always been, you know, individually interested in it. For quite a long period when I was a child, and all through high school later on, I wanted to be a physicist. And then, my senior year I got senioritis, I’m afraid, and wimped out of calculus and selected music theory as my alternative study, but [laughs] that proved to be almost as difficult, if not more so.

So I was also a musician and I got into music. And then when I was in college I took philosophy and that diverted me even further away from my original goal, into philosophy and ancient texts. I’ve also always been interested in history and ancient things, and mysteries, and so on and so forth. So I did my Ph.D. in England and then taught college for a number of years.

BR: In Oxford? Were you in Oxford?

JF: No, no. I wasn’t a professor at all at Oxford. I just did my Ph.D. there. I actually taught college in Oklahoma. It was mostly philosophy and history, but I did do an inter-disciplinary seminar at one period of time. That was a team-taught seminar, and the way the other professor and I had to kind of divvy up the various disciplines that we were trying to pull together... Well, she was a biologist so she handled certain things, and I got physics because that’s always been kind of a hobby even though I abandoned the professional pursuit of it, so...

We also discovered we had a common interest, as it were, in the esoteric and alternative things, and I presented some of my Pyramid ideas to her and she says: Oh, you’ve got to do that for the class. So I did it for the class and they kind of really liked it, much to my surprise.

After I quit college teaching I decided: Well, you know I might as well bite the bullet and write some of my crazy ideas down. So that’s kind of [laughs] how I got started in all of this. That’s how it came about.

BR: So you’re quite a polymath.

JF: Ah... I have a lot of interests. Yeah. I wouldn’t say polymath, but, yeah, I’ve got a broad spectrum of interests. [laughs]

BR: You’ve already answered one of my questions, which is how come it appears evidently that you have such a grasp of the physics which your research has led you to be entangled with, if I can use that word.

JF: Oh yeah. Well, when I was growing up I was the quintessential nerd. I mean, fun for me when I was a boy was playing with my daddy’s slide rule, you know? [laughs] So that kind of gives you the idea of what kind of person... I’ve always been a reader and to this day I still like to try and find physics papers online and pull ’em up and read ’em, and see what’s going on. So that’s kind of what I am.

BR: Well good for you because it sounds like, from what we can gather, having talked to mutual colleagues such as Richard Hoagland...

JF: Right.

BR: ...and Jim Marrs, who we interviewed just this morning, is that you’re providing a real service in the information chain, as it were, in terms of providing researchers - who are trying their best to assemble a big picture - with some specific drilled-down components that you seem eminently qualified to have stumbled across. Or perhaps that sounds too clumsy. Actually, maybe you’ve been going after them very deliberately ever since you realized that there was something to go after.

JF: Maybe.

BR: Do you think that that is correct?

JF: Maybe somewhere between the two. One of the things that always struck me... My academic background is actually in theology, and it always struck me that many of the methods that theologians use are very similar, in some respects, to methods that physicists use. And that may sound wildly contradictory to what most people would think.

But in looking at ancient texts, particularly philosophical texts, it always struck me that I was looking at a kind of a topological metaphor rather than specifically a metaphysical text. And the further I went back, the more apparent that metaphor became, to the point that it even became possible to notate certain concepts in text with the actual notation conventions of topology.

So I thought, well, you know: That’s kind of wild! [laughs] So I didn’t share it. Doing the Ph.D., I didn’t share that idea with anybody, you know. But after I quit college teaching I began to look at texts that way, and to see... And I had done it privately. I’m not saying that, you know, all of a sudden I decided to do this. I’d been doing it privately for a number of years and keeping little notebooks of it. But yeah. It was kind of half-accident, and kind of an on-going interest. So somewhere between the two.

BR: But there’s something that must have got you started specifically on the treasure-trail that led you to putting together a lot of the sub-jigsaw that was: What were the Nazis really doing before and during World War Two...

JF: Right.

BR: ...that nobody else seems to have really realized? What was it that led you in that direction? What were the first things you found?

JF: Well, the thing that always struck me that I don’t think has... And I don’t even include myself in this category. The thing that has always struck me about what kind of research the Nazis were doing is, on the one hand you have a definite esoteric, occult influence and interest that midwifes the Nazi Party into existence. You have a definite esoteric and occult influence at work after the Nazis take power.

And, you know, one of the things I like to point out is that the Nazi “State” with the SS and Heinrich Himmler, when he creates the Ahnenerbe Dienst [ed. note: Ahnenerbe Service] the so-called Ancestral Research Bureau...

If you go to the Nuremberg Tribunals and pull up the brief - you have to kind of dig for it but you can eventually find it - it’s a short little statement, declaration, that establishes this thing. But one of the things that he puts in as one of the purposes for this department is that it is to investigate all of these areas for their potential military application. Okay?

So we have that influence at work. And then, on the other hand, as you know, being mathematics and physics background, you have during that period of - oh, say 1920 up to about 1931, ’32 - you have this spate of publications in Germany of various Unified Field Theories: Kaluza, Einstein, Eddington, and so on and so forth. So you have that kind of scientific ferment at work.

And then of course you add Gabriel Kron into the mix, a Hungarian fellow, electrical engineer who says: Hey! You know, he wins a prize at the University of Liège in Belgium for a paper in which he says: Well, we electrical engineers notice all of these anomalies in large rotating electrical systems, and we can explain those anomalies by appealing to these higher-dimensional physics Unified Field Theories.

So in other words, if you stop and think of the implications of what he said, the technology of electrical circuitry, circa 1935, is producing anomalies only explainable by these higher-dimensional mathematical / physics theories. He’s telling you, in other words: These theories are engineer-able. They may be incomplete in the theoretical sense, but they’re nonetheless engineer-able theories. And that’s an important statement.

BR: Which is highly significant because he’s marrying two totally different worlds.

JF: Oh yes. Absolutely. Yes.

BR: Engineering in the practical; and the abstruse in the mathematical.

JF: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that struck me... I’ve just acquired some of Kron’s papers. I went out and bought one of his books, a little old Dover book publication. But what he does is, he takes the tensor calculus and uses it as a way of analyzing electrical machines.

BR: Now this is Einstein’s tensor calculus from his 1928 Unified Field paper?

JF: Yeah. This is... Right. And one of the things specifically that you’ll notice in Kron - although he doesn’t come right out and tell you: I’m now going to show you how torsion works - is he appeals to that very concept.

So you’ve got these two very different things going on as kind of an intellectual ferment in Germany at the time. You’ve got the esoteric and occult interest, and you have this very abstruse theoretical and engineering interest.

Now, I’ve always suspected that there is some sort of connection between the two. And this is kind of what got me interested in the whole “Bell” story, because the department of the German government that is conducting all of this very exotic research is precisely the SS.

BR: What year are we talking about now?

JF: That’s another good question. the Bell project itself, I think you can make a kind of a case, actually has its conceptual kind of proof-of-concept stage beginnings before the Nazis take power, and may have been as early as circa 1924 and ’25.

BR: That early!?

JF: That early. The reason that I say that is in one of my books I reproduce this little, oh, kind of a two-column filler article that ran in the Frankfurter Allgameine Zeitung, I think it was, but it was written by none other than Dr. Walther Gerlach.

Now Walther Gerlach, you know, he’s one of the most famous physicists at that time of history. He’s a Nobel Prize winner, you know... the famous Stern-Gerlach experiment.

I thought: Well whoa! Because what he’s talking about in this article is the possibility of the transmutation of elements, specifically in regard to mercury-to-gold, and he’s calling it a “new alchemy.” And that just really brought me up short. Because you know, this is, number one, before the discovery of nuclear fission by Otto Hahn. Okay? So he’s got some very different concept in his head.

BR: He’s a smart guy, he‘s not a...

JF: [laughs] He’s a very smart guy! Yeah. This is not a second-stringer, you know. And when he uses this word alchemy, it’s crystal clear. I even reproduced the original German article and then translated it, so you know that I’m not making this stuff up, folks.

BR: It’s the same word in German, isn’t it?

JF: Oh yeah. Alchemy. You can see it right there in an article. So he writes this article and then, it’s very clear, he makes a kind of a final little statement, that, you know: This should be investigated further and to do so it’s going to - hint, hint - require a lot of money. [laughs] So this is kind of the typical scientist’s appeal to the government. All right?

BR: Okay.

JF: Well, the reason I think that the project may have begun at this time is because it is precisely Dr. Walther Gerlach who is the project head of the Bellfor the Nazis.

BR: Okay. Now, Joe, I wonder if I could stop you here, because what we’ve got here is we’ve got the first ten minutes of what’s sounding like a really interesting movie where [Farrell laughs] no one’s quite sure what’s going on here...

JF: Yeah.

BR: ...but they’re interested.

JF: Okay.

BR: Now, for our viewers, Okay? We’ve talked about Einstein; tensor calculus - something that sounds very abstrusely mathematical that...

JF: It is! [laughs]

BR: ...no one will understand; the Nazis; and something called the Bell. So what’s the plot-line here? Why should anyone...

JF: Pay attention to this?

BR: ...care about this extraordinary story?

JF: All right. Very simple. It’s my belief... Just to give you kind of a very short Cliff Notes answer, it’s my belief, number one, that the Nazi atom bomb project was successful. Now, what I’m going to do is simply ask your viewers to accept that as kind of a “given” for the sake of argument so that I can kind of set the context. Okay?

If you look at the project classification of the Bell, the Nazis classified it as kriegsentscheidend - [ed. note: war decisive]. In other words, within the classification system of the Third Reich, the Bell was classified absolutely uniquely and at the very pinnacle of the system, and it is the ONLY project in Nazi Germany to be given that specific classification. In other words, higher than the atom bomb. Okay?

So in other words, to the Nazis the atom bomb is, you know, already kind of “old stuff.” [laughs] Okay? So that gives an indicator of what the significance is. But if you look at the physics that they’re trying to investigate, I believe they’re investigating it for three things - for the purposes of achieving three things.

Number one, they want to free Germany from energy dependence on foreign powers and foreign oil. So, in other words, they’re investigating the so-called “zero point” energy. Okay?

Number two, the same sort of physics they have seen is kind of a gateway or window into advanced field propulsion, or antigravity if you want to call it that.

And the third thing of course, Nazis being Nazis, is that they want to engineer this physics for a weapon. And of course we’re dealing now with the physics that, again, can engineer the fabric of space-time, locally.

BR: Okay. Now, just once again to summarize this before we go into even more detail.

JF: Sure.

BR: What you’re referring to here is, you’ve picked up the research line that was started by...

JF: Igor Witkowski.

BR: ...Nick Cook and Igor Witkowski. This thing that seems to have been called... well, for lack of a better word The Nazi Bell. We don’t know what they called it, do we?

JF: Well, actually they did call it Die Glocke.

BR: Die Glocke.

JF: And they had another nickname for it: Der Bienenstock - the beehive...

BR: The beehive.

JF: ...because of the sound it made. But one of the actual project code names was Projekt Cronos, or Project Time. Now, many people leap to the conclusion that well, they’re trying to build a time machine. Well, no. That’s... Time is involved because, again, you’re trying to use torsion to tap into the ability to manipulate the fabric of space-time.

BR: What’s torsion?

JF: All right. Torsion. The way I like to illustrate it very simply is: If you take a soda can and empty the soda out of it and then wring it like a dishrag, you’ve got that counter-rotating motion, and it’s going to spiral and fold and pleat that can, and then draw the ends of the can closer together. So that kind of is my simplistic illustration of what torsion does. And the can itself would represent space-time, okay?

Now, what they’re doing... I think ultimately, for the Nazis, the purpose of this is they want to weaponize it. And of course - and I say this over and over again in my interviews - if you’re dealing with a technology that has the potential to engineer space-time, that means that if you weaponize that, potentially you have a weapon that would make a hydrogen bomb look like a firecracker.

It’s truly planet-busting stuff if you’ve got the proper engineering behind it and, you know, develop appropriate power systems and so on. Which again... one and the same thing will lead to zero-point energy, so there’s your power, [laughs] you know?

BR: And there’re some very smart scientists in that time.

JF: Oh yes! Absolutely.

BR: One might actually say “the world’s finest”, would you say?

JF: I would say so. And again, you know, this is why I kind of prefaced my remarks by mentioning the atom bomb, because the kind of the post-war Allied legend, as I like to call it, is of course the Germans were a bunch of nuclear bunglers, you know. And they didn’t have enough manpower. And they didn’t have enough money, you know, and all of this happy nonsense that you hear in the textbooks.

Well, to me this story really doesn’t make much sense. And you’re right. They’ve got Heisenberg. They’ve got Hartek. I mean, these people are not second-stringers at all. So yeah, what the Germans are doing... And I want to emphasize here the importance of why Nazism would be the ideological cauldron for this, because Nazism of course had banned “Jewish physics”. In other words: Relativity.

And they even had ideological difficulties with aspects of quantum mechanics because it was too statistical. It was too probabilistic. It wasn’t deterministic enough for some of the Nazi ideologues.

But what is implied by this in the standard history is that within Nazi Germany you have an absolute stamping out of the scientific method and a dead-ending of physics. But I think if you look now, a hundred years after Relativity, we see precisely that physics has dead-ended. We have this kind of dogma in place now.

What I think Nazism really did is it freed those people in a certain way to think outside the box, and all of that outside-the-box thinking took place inside the confines of the SS. And the signal event that kicks all this loose now in modern times - the reason we’re finding out about it - is precisely German Reunification. Why?

BR: Right.

JF: Because when the Eastern Zone is basically annexed in a shotgun wedding by West Germany... and that’s exactly how I would describe it. When that happens, all of those old SS installations in the Eastern Zone - some of which the Soviets didn’t even get into, you know. The SS blew them up and the Soviets never bothered to go into them. The Germans went back in there and looked at all this stuff, and it wasn’t showing up on any radar screen connected with rockets or jet aircraft or poison gas, you know, any of the other stuff that they were doing. And so they began to wonder: Well, what’s going on here?

And then of course Igor finds that very strange “henge”-like structure there in Ludwikowice, I think in Poland, which used to be Ludwigsdorf, and he’s wondering: What is this? [laughs] You know? Why is this here?

And of course this kicks loose the spate of declassification. This kicks loose a bunch of people coming forward from the old Eastern Zone, now able to talk about what they saw, what they observed. So this has kicked loose a fantastic amount of information.

BR: It’s very interesting what you are saying about the... Let me rephrase what you’re saying: The crucible of the state’s support and the state’s agenda was a perfect support system for a scientist who wanted the funding and the motivation...

JF: And to think outside the box.

BR: ...and all the resources to go and play with his toys and to do what all scientists really want to do, which is to invent something wild...

JF: [laughs] Yes! Exactly!

BR: ...that works.

JF: That’s exactly right.

BR: And what some of our listeners will already be thinking is, like... they’ll be thinking: Wait a minute! This is what’s happening in Los Alamos and Hughes and Sandia and Bell Labs right now.

JF: Uh huh! Yes. That’s right. Yes!

BR: At a different time and in a different Reich - [Farrell laughs] - which is what Jim Marrs would say.

JF: Yeah. I wouldn’t have much of an argument with him either! [laughs]

BR: But what I also think you’re saying, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, is that if we want to understand that stuff that I just mentioned, then we need to go back to exactly this paper trail that you’ve been following, because what we’re seeing nowadays is the progeny of that. Is that correct?

JF: Yeah. Nazi Germany is, you know, it’s really a weird state when you examine the scientific implications of it because...

Let me go back to that SS department that Himmler sets up. Okay, you’re going to go out there and you’re going to research the Aryan heritage - if we look at the Nazi state and we go back to what Himmler sets up with this department - and he says: All right. Go out and investigate all of the aspects of the ancient Aryan heritage. But the mission brief is broad enough that he gives them.

Basically you have a department of the Nazi state created specifically for the purpose to investigate the esoteric, the occult, the hermetic, whatever you want to call all of this ancient lore, okay? For the specific purpose of military application.

BR: This again sounds eerily reminiscent of what we hear coming out of certain places in America right now.

JF: Yeah! Right. But here, what I’m emphasizing here, and what I want to kind of tie into what you said, is that this is the first time in modern history that a major world power has invested serious financial and personnel resources to do this. And it’s very, very clear, you know, in Nazi Germany’s case. So we have this cauldron, this crucible that, you know...

I take kind of almost diametrically the opposite tack that a standard academic historian would give you of this Aryan physics. We know what the failures are. I mean, they’re palpable. They’re blatant. But the reason we don’t know about the successes, and the reason that we’re only hearing about them now, is not only German Reunification but precisely because that crucible was in the SS. It was all classified. It was also deeply black.

But yeah, by freeing them from so-called “Jewish physics”, what they’re really saying is: We want you to think outside the box. We want you to come up with a completely different paradigm of physics. And if it’s engineer-able, [claps hands] go do it.

BR: Okay. Now, interestingly enough, just last week we spoke with Peter Levenda. Do you know him and his work?

JF: Oh yes. Yeah. I know Peter.

BR: We were delighted to talk with him and, of course, he’s somebody who...

JF: Oh yes.

BR: ...is a document researcher like yourself. And he described to us how he went to the very famous archivist, Dr. Wolfe...

JF: Okay. Yes.

BR: ...who showed him the archives of the SS Ahnenerbe.

JF: Oh boy! [laughs]

BR: And his words were that his jaw dropped. He never knew such a thing existed. It’s really interesting to us that you’ve been down that same rabbit-hole. And what I’d love to ask you about - if this doesn’t deviate from your thought-line here - is: What is the connection between this hard, but brilliant and out-of-the-box physics, with the occult?

JF: I think... Again, if you go back to the remarks I began with, I think if you go far enough back and look at certain types of texts, for example, the Hermetica, okay? And read them without the standard academic approach with metaphysics eyeglasses on, and read them rather as a topologist - as a mathematician - would read these texts, or as even a materials engineer, you know, might read these texts, what pops out of these things is a profound metaphor of a physical medium that creates information, and that’s a very modern idea.

In fact, it’s so modern, you know, it starts popping up in the Soviet Union in the 1970s and begins to kind of spread from there. All of this stuff is popping out of the Soviet Union.

So in other words, way back when - if we go back to the Hermetica - here we’re dealing with a text approximately, oh give or take, you know, 2,000 years old, so in others words... But it’s an Egyptian text even though it’s written in Greek. Its provenance is clearly Egyptian, okay? So this is very old and yet it contains this profoundly sophisticated physics metaphor.

That’s what really popped out at me, you know, when I was reading these texts. It wasn’t that I was supposed to be looking and seeing Platonic Universals, you know, the chair-of-all-chairs and the horse-of-all-horses. No. None of that was what was popping out at me. What Plato’s talking about is topology. He’s talking about common surfaces with common forms, okay? So I’m looking at this, and then I’m looking at the Nazis, and they’re coming up with these theories essentially in the ’20s and ’30s that are looking at the physical medium as an engineer-able reality. In other words, in a certain sense, as an information-creating medium. So... And again, the key to creating stable information is rotation, okay? Torsion, and so on and so forth.

So I’m thinking: Well, this appears to be precisely what we see going on with this Bell project. They are somehow pursuing this idea of physics. And one of the things that leapt out at me that kind of made this connection very clear is...

In my book, The Philosopher’s Stone, I refer to a fellow by the name of “Himmler’s Rasputin” - if you can imagine [laughs] Heinrich Himmler having a personal Rasputin! Well this guy’s name is Karl Maria Wiligut. Okay? He has a number of aliases that he wrote esoteric treatises under. But his basic conception is that the whole universe arises out of a tension between two counter-rotating spirals which create the “World Egg”. Okay?

And when I saw that I thought: Oh boy! Because of course in the Bell, you know - which I rationalize as basically a kind of hyper-dimensional torsion physics device - you’ve got these two counter-rotating drums into which they’re putting this high-density liquid, which I think may have even incorporated an isomer as one of its components. And of course an isomer is one of these high-spin isotopes, that if you de-excite it, it will release massive amounts of energy.

Well, you’ve got these two counter-rotating drums, and I’m thinking: Well, here’s the physics that they’re doing, and we’ve got these two counter-rotating things. And over here, Himmler’s Rasputin is saying: Well, this is all coming out of two counter-rotating systems. You know? So I think, clearly, you had an ideological culture in the SS that, rather than inhibiting scientific progress, really kind of forced them to pursue all of this higher-dimensional physics.

BR: It actually gave them an inspirational boost.

JF: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the kind of... the final nail in the coffin, as far as I’m concerned is, if you look at the swastika itself, you know, and view that as not so much the corporate logo of the Nazi Party but as an ideogram of this whole physics idea...

BR: It looks like a vector diagram.

JF: Yeah. It looks like a vector diagram. Exactly! You know, you’ve got a subsystem of rotation, you’ve got a subsystem of stress, and you throw them together and twist that thing, and there’s your parallel transports in the tensor calculus... and voila, you know, [laughs] you’re on your way.

Kerry Cassidy (KC): In a sense, that symbol came out of India.

JF: Oh sure. Yeah.

KC: They actually went back to the original meaning of the symbol, and picked up on it because it was supposed to have been...

JF: Yes. Bingo. Bingo! Exactly! And, you know, if you kind of can imagine Walther Gerlach being challenged, you know. Let’s assume the project’s underway when the Nazis take power. Gerlach got his wish. He got funding from the Weimar government, and he’s doing his spin experiments, okay? He was fascinated with spin and magnetic resonance and gravitation, you know. He corresponded with the Austrian physicist, Thirring. You know, the Lense-Thirring Effect. Satellite drag and all this, you know. This was his bag.

So imagine the Nazis coming in and saying: Well, Professor Doktor Gerlach, we’re going to shut your project down. It looks too suspicious to us. It’s dealing in areas we don’t want to deal with. It’s not part of our ideology. Well, all Gerlach has to do is say: Herr Himmler, it’s right there on your armband. He’s already sold them, in a certain sense! [Bill laughs]

And you’re right. Because the other thing about the Bell that I should mention in this context with India is that this Xerum 525 that they’re putting inside this device and spinning up... Well, number one, it’s a liquid. Number two, it’s of heavy density. Number three, it’s of a kind of a maroonish-violet color, okay? Very heavy.

So I’m thinking: A liquid metal. Mercury. So probably mercury is one thing. And there’s your connection to India. Because of course as you know, in the Vimana texts you have references to mercury vortexes. And, just to kind of make a final nail in the coffin, mercury’s kind of an ideal candidate if you’re going to use plasmas in this thing.

And again, you know, you have astrophysicists in Germany - Houtermans - looking at the sun thinking: Okay, we’ve got nuclear fusion up there. And they’ve already noticed the sun rotates but the plasma is rotating at different velocities, so you’ve got this “differential rotation” they call it, but that’s just a fancy word for, you know, it’s rotating at different velocities. And they’re putting all this together in this device.

KC: What about the Vimanas? You know, what was in essence flying saucers way back when? Do you think that they might have gotten the idea there?

JF: From those ancient texts? Let me put it this way: I don’t think it’s even necessary to say that that might have been a motivation. However, within the culture of the SS that is conducting this research, you’re going to have one department, the Ahnenerbe, reading these texts and taking them to the scientists to analyze. And the scientists are going to look at these things and say: Oh, isn’t that interesting?

Because over here Professor Doctor Gerlach has been studying this. He won a Nobel Prize for examining aspects of this type of physics, and he’s been investigating and researching ever since. And they’re putting these two things together. I think that’s what’s happening in Nazi Germany. They’re doing the first attempt, in a certain sense, to go back at these ancient texts and say they contain a scientific metaphor, and therefore a technology. And we have these papers now that we can see this. Let’s try and reconstruct it.

This is a vital thing because that means they have also seen - and this is, again, a part of Nazi ideological belief - that there was a very sophisticated ancient civilization. So in another sense then, yeah, they’re trying to reconstruct this stuff. In that sense they’re kind of a resurrection of Atlantis.

BR: Hmm.

KC: Then are they looking at the Egyptian pyramids and the Sumerian seals…

JF: They’re looking at everything. [laughs]

KC: …and they’re getting all kinds of clues.

JF: Oh yeah! Absolutely they are, you know…

BR: Because at exactly the same time as this they were mounting expeditions all over the world to try and get hold of…

JF: Oh yes.

BR: …anything they could get a hold of.

JF: Oh yes.

BR: That would give them clues to all of this, right?

JF: Well, in this regard, this idea of an ancient civilization in trying to get clues into it; you’re familiar with the ‘38-39 Schafer expedition to Tibet.

BR: Yes.

JF: Okay. Well, Himmler was a personal sponsor of this. What I find interesting is that, in spite of the heavy influence of the British Raj in Tibet, the Nazis not only were able to gain entry into the Potala from the regions. They came out of Tibet with an entire copy - as Peter Levenda’s research establishes - an entire copy of the Kangschur; this ancient Tibetan epic which is supposed to be about this very sophisticated ancient civilization. And they make it back to Germany with this.

BR: And they knew its importance.

JF: Oh yes absolutely they did, absolutely they did.

KC: So some of their technology could have come from Tibet as well?

JF: I think some of their technology has to... Some of their thinking has to come from looking at these texts and looking at all of these very abstruse ideas in physics and putting them together because they fit so snuggly at places at times that it really is astonishing. You know, I didn’t dare write about any of this when I was a professor. [laughs] That’s why I wait until after I get out of there. Now I’ll write it down.

BR: The least one can say about it is that this is all the work of intuitive genius.

JF: Yes, I…

BR: That’s the least one can say.

JF: That’s the least that one can say. And again, the fact that we have an organized department of the government - and a secret one at that - doing this, that means it’s organized.

BR: Yup!

JF: And that, to me, implies that - as you’re implying - that to me indicates that there is some deliberation being taken in thinking and rationalizing all of this out.

BR: Okay. Now let me just dispose of one question here that our viewers will want me to ask.

JF: Sure. [laughs]

BR: Actually, and secretly, I want to ask it myself too. This is the claimed inference of the Vril Society; those young girls who were channeling, remote viewing, accessing clairvoyant information - whatever you want to call it.

JF: Okay.

BR: That’s been much vaunted…

JF: Yes.

BR: …by theorists who claim that they were accessing information that may have come from other realms or other planets or whatever.

JF: Right.

BR: What’s your take on that?

JF: I don’t base my analysis of the Bell Project, or anything like that, on channeled information or on Neo-Nazi sources. My problem with this story is precisely those two things. That it comes, first of all, from a source that is anecdotal and, secondly, that the ultimate source that’s putting it out has some very shady kind of Neo-Nazi ties, okay?

And there’s no other corroboration of it other than the fact that we know that something called the Vril Society did exist, and we know it because it was the German rocket scientist Willy Ley that first mentioned it when he came over to this country to escape the Nazis.

BR: Mm-hm.

JF: Okay. So we know that that society existed. We don’t know much about it. They did publish a small thin little brochure in Berlin prior to the war. I haven’t been able to get a hold of it. I don’t know what it’s contents are. So, as far as I’m concerned, this is a story that, number one, has kind of a suspect origin and, number two, I haven’t been able to find anything other than this story to corroborate that the Nazis were doing this.

I do know that the Ahnenerbe is doing research that we would now consider paranormal or psychic or remote viewing or what have you. Certainly they were. So you’ve got a general context in which something like that might have taken place, but they are alleging that this took place toward the end - in fact in some cases during World War One and toward the end of World War One - long before the Nazis are even on the scene.

BR: I thought it was in the twenties.

JF: No. I think one of these was 1916 and another one was in 19 - and again, I may be mistaken - 1919 I think, close to Berchtesgarten, which is another unusual little coincidence [laughs] in this story, but...

KC: But did you investigate the remote viewing, like the origins of remote viewing, in the Nazi…

JF: No, no I haven’t. That’s an aspect of the story I think again that is going to come out eventually. The problem now is getting... There are massive amounts of Ahnenerbe documents in the US national archives, but many of them are still unavailable, so the problem is being able to tell a complete story. You see, that’s the whole problem here. It’s not that I don’t think that there is one but right now all we have with the Vril Society is a kind of a general kind of corroboration of a context.

BR: Yes. And presumably you’re also sort of invoking Occam’s Razor by saying it’s not necessary to…

JF: To go there.

BR: I understand that.

JF: Exactly. It’s not necessary because you have another occult influence at work already within the SS that has a specifically detailed conceptual relationship to the physics being investigated with the Bell and that’s this guy Wiligut.

BR: Yeah.

JF: Right. So you really don’t even need to go there. It would be kind of nice icing on the cake, you know, if they figured out: Well, consciousness plays a role in this too and we’re going to investigate that. Well if they’re rationalizing things to that extent, yeah, then we’re in even deeper trouble. [laughs]

BR: Okay. Now after all those fascinating set-ups…

JF: Okay. [laughs]

BR: …our viewers here, who are thinking this sounds like a detective story; this sounds like Columbo...

JF: Or a bad Oliver B movie. [laughs]

BR: What was the Bell? What were they trying to do? And what is known what is not known what is theorized and why is this important?

JF: Okay, let me give you the basic data points and then I’ll give you how I kind of rationalize them. My rationalization of it is a bit different that Igor Witkowski and Nick Cook although I kind of build on some aspects of their analysis.

First of all it’s a device, it’s bell shaped, it stands about twelve to fifteen feet high, nine to twelve feet wide. It’s either cased in a kind of a ceramic metal or just plain old ceramic. It’s got heavy duty electrical port cable - electrical cabling ports - around the device.

Inside the device there are two counter rotating drums - and I want to be clear here. The data that we have does not specify the internal configuration of those drums within the Bell. These two counter rotating drums had a 'serum' - this Xerum 525 (see Hunt for Zero Point) I mentioned earlier - the heavy maroonish-red, probably mercury, compound.

It is cryogenically cooled either by liquid oxygen or liquid nitrogen and it is close to an electrical power plant and sounds like a beehive Okay? The electrical power plant is kind of to put an hyperbole on it near yards away from the installations that the Bell is being tested in all right?

BR: The kind of hum you get from a high voltage generator.

JF: Yes. Okay. Now let’s put all these things... Those are the data points, and the…

BR: And this is known how?

JF: This is known by an SS general by the name of Jakob Sporrenberg who was part of this project because he was the general that was tasked, at the end of the war, to go in and murder sixty of the scientists involved with the project.

BR: Hm.

JF: In other words the Nazis want to keep this thing absolutely quiet.

BR: I didn’t know that.

JF: Oh yeah, that’s how all this comes out. He’s tried for that crime by a Polish War Crimes Tribunal because, of course, Poland slid westward and took over parts of Pomeranian Silesia that were formerly German provinces. And the Bell was tested in that part of Germany that then became Poland after the war.

So Poland assumed jurisdiction over this man for that crime and we know it by the affidavit that he gave at that war crimes trial, okay? But it’s important again to realize, it’s after the collapse of the iron curtain, it’s after the collapse of the east German state and basically the shotgun wedding that was had in 1989, that all of this comes out.

Now, Sporrenberg also describes the effect of the device on plants. Plants exposed to the field of this thing when it was operating would decay to a kind of a brownish grey goo within a matter of either hours or weeks, this would vary.

BR: They’d come apart.

JF: Yes. They’d just literally fall apart, just blugh, and they would do so without putrefaction. The first time it was tested apparently the Germans had not done something correctly and seven of the original scientists of the project were killed when it was tested the first time. Later on, apparently, they learned how to kind of control some of these deadly effects a little bit more reasonably.

But those are the data points. And one little final bit of information - a final bit of data point... When it was tested underground it had to be tested in a room lined with ceramic bricks over which were placed rubber mats. After each test concentration camp victims would come in, remove the rubber mats, burn the mats and then scrub down the ceramic bricks with brine - okay? That had to be done for some reason after each test.

BR: Radioactivity?

JF: Yes I think so, I think so. Again... and I’m mentioning that because it’s a crucial data point. Then, when it was tested outside, it was tested apparently inside this henge-like structure that is near all of these strange installations with this electrical power plant right there.

This henge stood in a kind of a basin - a pool - it looks like, that would have contained some sort of liquid. Around the perimeter of this pool there are... And you can see this on the History Channel documentary with Nick Cook. Igor takes Nick down into this structure and you can see these entry ports for all of this heavy duty electrical cabling, okay?

Apparently, when tested at night, these concentration camp inmates described this barrel-like thing that would glow a pale blue glow and it would rise above the tree line and kind of sit there and then it would fall back down; lower back down.

So those are our data points. I don’t think that the dimensions of the device, at this point in my research, are functionally significant so let’s turn to the cryogenic cooling, o

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